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I'm on the fence. On one hand, I love that there are members of the lesser gender (j/k) with the ability AND interest to play the drums as well as some do. On the other hand - it seems weird that they play as well as, or inferior to, other male drummers, but get notoriety simply because of their gender. It's the way the world turns. Lesser gender?Wow.do you really believe that?I've worked with female cops that will kick your butt down the block,everyday and twice on Sundays. I've trained female shooters,in both archery and firearms who will beat most if not all male challengers. The truth is because of the fact that the're female,most males still think that the're superior to women.That's what they get so many hits.You just want to see what they first of all look like.The playing is usually secondary.

The're plenty of really good female drummers out there,they're just more men doing it that women,so it just seems like some of them are not as talented. The're also more that enough male drummers on youtube who couldn't find a 4/4 if you gave them a map,and told em' where to start. Yep Steve, 'jk' = 'joke'.

Pretty well equivalent to a wink but without the potentially lascivious overtones;-);-) No doubt there's novelty value in being a woman drummer - if you're young and gorgeous and play really well (Emanuelle, Meytal). It's even a novelty for me! I don't see a lot of women play either since I don't play in front of a mirror (even though over a year ago Brent suggested I do that when I practice for more effective sessions lol) That's just how things are in this society where sex is dirty and violence is family entertainment. Let's face it, you don't see marketers trying to sell cars by draping semi naked men over them, do you? 'Tis a shame.

I'd advise that you just view them as 'drummers'. This difference in genders thing has really gotten old. In an industry that actively celebrates and awards the difference in gender, what hope has anyone else got? And the Grammy for best female vocalist goes to. Or how about?

The Oscar for best actress in a leading role goes to. As for the question at hand, I think it's perfectly valid. Advertisers and marketers cottoned on to this idea years ago.long before youtube.

That horse bolted whem Adam was a lad, so it's no surprise to me at all that people will throw out a tag line that plays on gender in the hope of being noticed in the fog. What do I think of it? Fine by me, I see it everywhere, everyday.on billborads, on TV.everywhere I turn my head. A 'hot chick' playing drums is just another minute example. If they feel the need to promote gender or even the fact that they are 'hot' in order to score a few views it's no skin off my nose.

'Views' are one thing.if they have no talent to begin with then who's gonna stick around anyway? No harm, no foul, for mine. At the end of the day, they've still gotta be able to cut it for me to keep watching. In an industry that actively celebrates and awards the difference in gender, what hope has anyone else got?

How Much Do World Rally Drivers Earn To Die here. And the Grammy for best female vocalist goes to. Or how about?

The Oscar for best actress in a leading role goes to. As for the question at hand, I think it's perfectly valid. Advertisers and marketers cottoned on to this idea years ago.long before youtube. That horse bolted whem Adam was a lad, so it's no surprise to me at all that people will throw out a tag line that plays on gender in the hope of being noticed in the fog. What do I think of it? Fine by me, I see it everywhere, everyday.on billborads, on TV.everywhere I turn my head.

A 'hot chick' playing drums is just another minute example. If they feel the need to promote gender or even the fact that they are 'hot' in order to score a few views it's no skin off my nose.

'Views' are one thing.if they have no talent to begin with then who's gonna stick around anyway? No harm, no foul, for mine.

At the end of the day, they've still gotta be able to cut it for me to keep watching. I agree with you.

But we're talking about an 'auditory' experience rather than a visual one. If I put on a record and the music is good, then why should anyone care if it was a male or a female drummer? The music is good. If it's not good, then it still shouldn't matter what the gender is, right?

I agree with you. But we're talking about an 'auditory' experience rather than a visual one. If I put on a record and the music is good, then why should anyone care if it was a male or a female drummer? The music is good. If it's not good, then it still shouldn't matter what the gender is, right?

Totally agree, in an auditory sense 'hot chick drummer' is unlikely to have as many people switching a radio dial to give it a listen on that basis alone. However, youtube is more than putting on a record or CD. The very nature of youtube is visual (hell, we could argue the very nature of popular music in this day in age is visual. Thanks to MTV, it would appear that a band or artist is only as good as their accompanying video):-) But 'hot chick drummer' is gonna spark a lot more interest than 'drummer'.pretty much why the tactic is used in the first place. The very nature of youtube is visual (hell, we could argue the very nature of popular music in this day in age is visual. Thanks to MTV, it would appear that a band or artist is only as good as their accompanying video) You could argue that music is almost always an audio-visual experience. Generally you will see musicians and vocalists and props and dancers or recorded music with interesting cover art.

They knew a bit visuals and music back in Mozart's day. Even prehistoric times!

It's not like tribal people don't dress up to dance. I wonder if the percentage of 'bad' guy drummers is the same as the percentage of 'bad' girl drummers, as judged by a YouTube survey. I should make a video and name it 'guy drumming', then upload the same video but instead name it it 'hot guy drumming' and compare view tallies.I think some key phrases automatically attract views. It's not just hot chicks, but 'epic fail' 'worst ----' 'best ----' 'greatest ----', anything that offers an extreme, or titillates, is a winning phrase. Novelty, in whatever form, is always going to be more curiosity gratifying than 'here's a great groove'. For those of you surprised by the bowelesque side of human nature, & if the views others get irks you, 300bpm bouble bass, wearing a mankini whilst impaled on a throne base, + throw in a sprinkling of cross gender appendages should do the trick;). I think some key phrases automatically attract views.

It's not just hot chicks, but 'epic fail' 'worst ----' 'best ----' 'greatest ----', anything that offers an extreme, or titillates, is a winning phrase. Novelty, in whatever form, is always going to be more curiosity gratifying than 'here's a great groove'. For those of you surprised by the bowelesque side of human nature, & if the views others get irks you, 300bpm bouble bass, wearing a mankini whilst impaled on a throne base, + throw in a sprinkling of cross gender appendages should do the trick;) Aahhhhhh! My eyes!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=Anon La Ply;1051818]Yep Steve, 'jk' = 'joke'. Pretty well equivalent to a wink but without the potentially lascivious overtones;-);-) No doubt there's novelty value in being a woman drummer - if you're young and gorgeous and play really well (Emanuelle, Meytal). It's even a novelty for me! I don't see a lot of women play either since I don't play in front of a mirror (even though over a year ago Brent suggested I do that when I practice for more effective sessions lol) That's just how things are in this society where sex is dirty and violence is family entertainment.

Let's face it, you don't see marketers trying to sell cars by draping semi naked men over them, do you? 'Tis a shame.[/QUOa True, but if draping semi-naked men over cars worked you can bet your life the marketing types would use it. Sadly, using female models must sell cars or they would not waste the money. On the 'Girl Drummers' question posted. He had to mention the gender or the question would have been pointless. It would appear there are a lot of people who want to see 'Girl' drummers on youtube who would not be interested if they were merely labeled 'Drummer'. Probably because a lot of hits are from people not interested in the rhythmic prowess of the subject.

Human nature, I suppose. My eyes!!!!!!!!Sorry Bo, but some warped individual had to go there;) I always thought Andy was such a nice boy lol Man, that was an exotic image. At this rate this page is going to get more hits than any other page on DW! All we need now is for someone to start a thread about Premier drums called 'vintage porn' and we'll have ticked most boxes;-) Ha, yes, but notice my 'Vintage porn' thread hasn't attracted as many responses or views as this thread:) I have been known to use that 'tongue in cheek' tactic before, but any threads titled in that 'style' are guaranteed not to deliver according to expectations:).

I find it kind of interesting that this has automatically evolved from the OP's question of 'girl drummers' to many comments about 'hot chick drummers'. It seems it must go in that direction by nature proving our own point. Obviously, drumming is still more of a male dominated arena and to have a girl who drums is still considered fairly unusual at this point, especially one who is really good. Therefore, due to nothing else than sheer numbers, you have more males looking up drumming videos on a site like youtube and therefore they, for the most part, are of course going to be more apt to run across and be drawn to watch these hot chick drummer vids. My guess is, if there were more female drummers out there trolling youtube in the first place, then hot male drummer vids would get their fair share of hits as well. Probably because a lot of hits are from people not interested in the rhythmic prowess of the subject.

Human nature, I suppose. Music as a vehicle rather than music just for its own sake. Utility or art? Dancing or meditation? Background or listening?

Thrills 'n' spills or depth? Ha, yes, but notice my 'Vintage porn' thread hasn't attracted as many responses or views as this thread:) The way we're going it may become the most viewed page in Drummwerworld history. Remember when I titled one of my postings GIRL DRUMMER!! As satire and someone came in late and chided me for it? Then hot male drummer vids would get their fair share of hits as well. I'd recommend Benny Greb tutorials:).

I love seeing girl drummers, just because there are not that many of them. The ability of a female to generate interest with her looks is offset by the additional challenges that face girl drummers. It's still a male-dominated industry. So call it a draw. Can't do anything about it anyhow, most attractive females will utilize their looks in any type of stage career.

As they should. Cindy Blackman, Hillary Jones and Terry Lynne Carrington are respected female drummers that come to mind, and not for their looks. Although they are all very attractive. [QUOTE=Anon La Ply;1051818]Yep Steve, 'jk' = 'joke'.

Pretty well equivalent to a wink but without the potentially lascivious overtones;-);-) No doubt there's novelty value in being a woman drummer - if you're young and gorgeous and play really well (Emanuelle, Meytal). It's even a novelty for me! I don't see a lot of women play either since I don't play in front of a mirror (even though over a year ago Brent suggested I do that when I practice for more effective sessions lol) That's just how things are in this society where sex is dirty and violence is family entertainment.

Let's face it, you don't see marketers trying to sell cars by draping semi naked men over them, do you? 'Tis a shame.[/QUOa True, but if draping semi-naked men over cars worked you can bet your life the marketing types would use it. Sadly, using female models must sell cars or they would not waste the money. On the 'Girl Drummers' question posted.

He had to mention the gender or the question would have been pointless. It would appear there are a lot of people who want to see 'Girl' drummers on youtube who would not be interested if they were merely labeled 'Drummer'. Probably because a lot of hits are from people not interested in the rhythmic prowess of the subject. Human nature, I suppose.My sister has played for 40 yearsand is a beautiful women. I hate the qoute but most of the girls say she plays 'like a man'.She plays a double bass set of ludwigs and is a great rudimentry drummer,kicks it like a sledgehammer and has played with many goodgroups:alot of session work in Nashville.

I am proud of her playing,as I play myself. I'd put her up against most other drummers of her experience. Thomas has his good points (originally my typo was 'god points' - Freudian?) but he's is too much of a jock for me.

I'm sticking with Benny for now. Most of the girls say she plays 'like a man'.She plays a double bass set of ludwigs and is a great rudimentry drummer,kicks it like a sledgehammer and has played with many goodgroups:alot of session work in Nashville. I hear that to make it in Nashville sessions you have to hit hard. She must be a fantastic player because I also hear it's a super competitive scene. I think the bigger issue here are drummers who use things other than their skill. There are plenty of guys on youtube who are glammed out wearing sunglasses indoors, with expensive drums, high quality audio/video production, and are just mediocre at best.

Meanwhile they have tons of views. I don't think anyone should get upset about it.

I think any working musician wants to put themselves out there and if something works, you can't really fault them. With that said, Cindy Blackman is one of my all time favorite drummers, and it had nothing to do with her gender.

Because most women just aren't as brave, fabulous and tenacious as Anon and myself:) Exactly:) The worst thing that can happen is you are the only one available and conscripted to help unload the W bins. That one ended up a whisker away from disaster.

Just thinking about it makes me shudder! I never understood that 'feminine' or 'masculine' role of drumming. Playing has more to do with coordination than strength. Humans are silly. Guys tend to be better with gross motor coordination. To be totally un PC, I think blacks are more coordinated than whites in the same way as men are more coordinated than women - tons of overlap, of course, but the trend is clear to me.

No biggie IMO - in all these things it's a matter of swings and roundabouts, which is what being different means (as opposed to better or worse). But in the end it's the look of the thing.

Drummers strike blows - guy territory. Ironically, unless you're a basher, drums are gentler on hands and fingers than other instruments. I found that out during my brief keyboard stint. It's a big reason why I returned to nice, gentle, kind drums - the only pain drums give me is emotional:) Singing is hard on the vocal cords. Wind instruments are exhausting and it's not much fun for them when they catch a cold before a gig. So my message to parents is.

Encourage your your daughter to take up drums! It's gentle and provides good toning, while leaving hands soft and ladylike:) Gender is irrelevant to art.but have you noticed that in the pantheon of mind-bendingly good drummers.they are all male? Sure.there are some good drummers who happen to be female.but none I would mention in the top 20. Social acceptability differences?Muscle Mass/aggression(eg Testosterone) differences?Pure chance?

What combination is determining this(beyond my own definition of mind-bendingly good drummer) Agree that gender is not an issue in most high art, but it sure matters in popular music - I don't see a lot of guys out there covering Dusty Springfield tunes or women covering NIN's Closer to God. I suspect women aren't big in drumming in the same way as Luxembourg (pop 500,000) isn't big in the Olympics. In some genres I expect muscle twitch and strength come into play. When I played hard rock all the drummers I knew were guys and they had power that I couldn't match (we were all self taught), but musicians in my bands always liked what I did because I played with them rather than over the top of them. For whatever reason - probably the genteelness and conservatism of the thing - more women play instruments used in classical music. While most drumming is gender-neutral, the drums are a brilliant vehicle for alpha male displays of athletic power and/or skill. Much more so than other instruments because of the scale of movements.

It excites something in our hind brains. So that gets the most attention. I enjoy the showy stuff for a while, but I need more expressiveness or imagination to stay interested, but I'm a weirdo - and hence a woman drummer:) // end long winded hypotheses:). Because most women just aren't as brave, fabulous and tenacious as Anon and myself:) Many a true word said in jest Mary. I think, sadly, it's much more about gender conditioning and gender specific roles than any lack of talent or ability. It is, unfortuately, in this day and age still much more accepted that boys/men play drums than girls/women. It's also much easier to be a Plug ugly guy playing drums- how many women who don't conform to the media stereotype of what a woman should look like are out there playing.

I haven't seen many, if I've even seen any. So not only do you have to play well, you probably have to be 'hot' too, to get the kind of exposure that Corbus or others of his ilk do.

It's just as well I'm not a girl, or I'd be stuffed! The way I see it is these female youtube drummers are using their gender as novelty and getting hits based on their looks in a way. It may be working for them but also selling themselves short.

I wonder why drummers like Meytal for example don't play in a great band or start one, record their own solos and compose their own musical stuff, when they are obviously talented enough. Why does it has to be covers? All they are doing is copying performances.

They are showing great skill, yeah, but not using their own creativity. Where's the art and personality?

And when they do lessons it seems like such rudimentary stuff you can get elsewhere. Why not show us something new? I'd be less inclined to say Meytal is playing the gender card if it didn't feel like she was getting away with average stuff, when she could be doing more. I hate seeing a female coast along and not play up their potential. Look at Orianthi on guitar. She's powerhouse! She never gives 50% when she could probably get away with it theses days.

She gives 110% and got the MJ gig to prove it! If gender is not an issue, why do so many female drummers get treated differently for mediocre talent when we as males would be ignored for being average? Good should be good, average should be average, and not have looks or gender be a factor. Yep RocknGrohl, a few utilise visuals to broaden their appeal. That's unheard of in music, eh?;-) Who was last to completely disregard visuals?

The old jazzers in the 50s and 60s? (with some notable exceptions). Music is mostly an audio-visual experience - from face and body paint to opera masks to the big swing bands to sexy crooners to the hippie colour explosion to major rock productions to punk chic to quiffs with more gel than hair and steampunk outfits to the grunge look to dance and laser extravaganzas. At home you had album cover art and music videos.

Dance has been a common theme throughout. Usually the singers and the dancers are the attraction and the musos provide support. Talk of music videos brings us back to Meytal.

Her videos show her playing her instrument. You don't see that too much in band video clips. She gets to stay at home and relax rather than touring. Not my thing - I find drum covers as boring as batsheet - but I think her head's screwed on the right way. Anyone, regardless of sex, who is encouraged to learn drums (especially from an early age) will end up with good rhythmic skills. In a lot of Islamic countries, many women were amateur drummers. That's not so much the case now, because modernisation has meant a lot of traditions are dying out, but many 'ordinary' women could be quite accomplished frame-drummers, tabla players etc.

When there's a culture that encourages musicianship among women, then you end up with outstanding women musicians. And for that reason I'm in favour of any vids that promote women drummers. They can be role models, getting away from the typical, male drummer stereotype (I'm sure not all young women want to learn from pot-bellied bald guys with a wardrobe that hasn't rung the changes since 1988). They're just drummers. How the rest of the world reacts can't be blamed on them. Something that's rarer will always get more attention, just because it's not the norm.

Foreign musicians get a bitmore attention in my country than the average Norwegian musician. When the double bass craze caught on about 10 years ago, the people who jumped on it got more attrention. It's just how things work especially in the entertainment business. Now if a girl is obviously trying to play that card that's her choice. But, it would be hypocritical to not admit that men do the exact same thing.

When I went to the conservatory there was only two players that had a deep enough groove and song sensibility that I truly enjoyed playing with them. One was male and the other a female. She was the only girl drummer in that school and to my knowledge the only one ever.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's only 1 female drummer pr.1000 male drummers. That in itself makes it unique.

I'm to old to get excited by half naked children, so as with all musicians I have only one concern. Can they play? All that other stuff is for the tabloids to ponder. The way I see it is these female youtube drummers are using their gender as novelty and getting hits based on their looks in a way.

It may be working for them but also selling themselves short. I wonder why drummers like Meytal for example don't play in a great band or start one, record their own solos and compose their own musical stuff, when they are obviously talented enough.

Why does it has to be covers? All they are doing is copying performances. They are showing great skill, yeah, but not using their own creativity.

Where's the art and personality? And when they do lessons it seems like such rudimentary stuff you can get elsewhere. Why not show us something new? I'd be less inclined to say Meytal is playing the gender card if it didn't feel like she was getting away with average stuff, when she could be doing more. I hate seeing a female coast along and not play up their potential. This applies to basically everyone doing that kind of thing, male or female.

Why are you directing your criticism/concern only at women?why do so many female drummers get treated differently for mediocre talent when we as males would be ignored for being average? Because that's life. Mediocre players get ahead all the time for non-musical reasons. I'm aware of no special rule that says that doesn't apply to women. The way I see it is these female youtube drummers are using their gender as novelty and getting hits based on their looks in a way. It may be working for them but also selling themselves short. I wonder why drummers like Meytal for example don't play in a great band or start one, record their own solos and compose their own musical stuff, when they are obviously talented enough.

Why does it has to be covers? All they are doing is copying performances. They are showing great skill, yeah, but not using their own creativity. Where's the art and personality? And when they do lessons it seems like such rudimentary stuff you can get elsewhere. Why not show us something new? I'd be less inclined to say Meytal is playing the gender card if it didn't feel like she was getting away with average stuff, when she could be doing more.

I hate seeing a female coast along and not play up their potential. Look at Orianthi on guitar. She's powerhouse! She never gives 50% when she could probably get away with it theses days. She gives 110% and got the MJ gig to prove it! If gender is not an issue, why do so many female drummers get treated differently for mediocre talent when we as males would be ignored for being average?

Good should be good, average should be average, and not have looks or gender be a factor. Maybe they just like doing what they are doing. Was just wondering what you guys thought of all these girl drummers getting loads of views on youtube? I watch a lot, I mean A LOT, of drummers on YT, so I see more male than female drummers overall, which is 'normal' I guess, there's more guys than girls playing the drums.what I think of them?

If they can play, I watch them, if not, I'll pass (like I would for male drummers):).but I have some favorite female drummers: Cindy Blackman,Terri Lyne Carrington, Emmanuelle Caplette. And of course Grea & Mary:) Cindy Blackman Terri Lyne Carrington Emmanuelle Caplette Were there drums in that vid?:):) Because most women just aren't as brave, fabulous and tenacious as Anon and myself:) There you go Mary:) absolutely correct!!! I never understood that 'feminine' or 'masculine' role of drumming. Playing has more to do with coordination than strength. Humans are silly. Agreed, but drumming and drums is more a 'guys' thing, generally speaking - how many female lorry driver, plumber, carpenter. Do you see out there?

There's some for sure, but it's always 'noticeable' when you see them, and I'm sure they're as good as the male counterpart in the same job I wonder why drummers like Meytal for example don't play in a great band or start one, record their own solos and compose their own musical stuff, when they are obviously talented enough. Why does it has to be covers? All they are doing is copying performances. They are showing great skill, yeah, but not using their own creativity. Where's the art and personality?

And when they do lessons it seems like such rudimentary stuff you can get elsewhere. Why not show us something new? I'd be less inclined to say Meytal is playing the gender card if it didn't feel like she was getting away with average stuff, when she could be doing more. Meytal's certainly playing the gender card, the sexy outfit, the teasing eyes, the smiles at the viewers, the wind in her hair.

It feels all very calculated to seduce a male audience (and it works), but once you seen one vid, it's a bit repetive, she can play, no doubt about it, but it's quickly tiresome, I would like to see her in a band, playing original songs. Emmanuelle Caplette is also doing covers, but they feel more focus on the drumming side, and it's her band who play these covers, not just playing over the original drummers. Links please caz:) You've seen them:) They're just drummers.

How the rest of the world reacts can't be blamed on them. That's probably resume this topic really well, I totally agree with you man:).

Anyone, regardless of sex, who is encouraged to learn drums (especially from an early age) will end up with good rhythmic skills. In a lot of Islamic countries, many women were amateur drummers. That's not so much the case now, because modernisation has meant a lot of traditions are dying out, but many 'ordinary' women could be quite accomplished frame-drummers, tabla players etc. When there's a culture that encourages musicianship among women, then you end up with outstanding women musicians. And for that reason I'm in favour of any vids that promote women drummers. They can be role models, getting away from the typical, male drummer stereotype (I'm sure not all young women want to learn from pot-bellied bald guys with a wardrobe that hasn't rung the changes since 1988). They're just drummers.

How the rest of the world reacts can't be blamed on them. Something that's rarer will always get more attention, just because it's not the norm. Foreign musicians get a bit more attention in my country than the average Norwegian musician.

When the double bass craze caught on about 10 years ago, the people who jumped on it got more attention. It's just how things work especially in the entertainment business. Now if a girl is obviously trying to play that card that's her choice. But, it would be hypocritical to not admit that men do the exact same thing. When I went to the conservatory there was only two players that had a deep enough groove and song sensibility that I truly enjoyed playing with them. One was male and the other a female. She was the only girl drummer in that school and to my knowledge the only one ever.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's only 1 female drummer pr.1000 male drummers. That in itself makes it unique. I'm to old to get excited by half naked children, so as with all musicians I have only one concern. Can they play? All that other stuff is for the tabloids to ponder. Outstanding posts, both. Links please caz:) BTW, are you coming to the London drum show next weekend?

Call by if you are. A girl drummer putting links on a thread about girl drummers trying to get views.!! It was kind of tongue in cheek what I said, if the videos I've got up were any good I'm sure they'd have more hits, the same goes for anyone. Ooh I may go the the drum show, where would I find you to say hello?

Yes, but you play jazz, Caz (with pizzazz:) hehe thanks, pizzazz sounds a bit like pizzas so that must be a good thing! Just curious but did you actually say anything along the lines of 'girl drummer' in the video title? I wouldn't have thought it relevant. But to be fair there are times when it can be relevant for ads and things - some parents can prefer their daughters to get taught by female drummers.

Also I remember Gregg Bissonette saying how important it is for drummers to be able to do backing vocals, and there have been a few times where people have got in touch wanting a female drummer because of a preference for female backing vocals. That's about it really. Interesting reading. Anybody post in this thread simply because of the title? We should just gauge the validity of the topic by how many views it received when compared to others of a similar date.

I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower. So the mere definition of a good 'girl' drummer is completely different than a good drummer. This is based solely off of my own personal observations. This may be offensive, but I don't have enough evidence supporting any contrary theories.

I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations. I think lady drummers have the potential to be much better than men if applied. You can't argue that women are typically more coordinated, more flexible, and most are shown to have better memory. All these advances in the brain would almost certainly mean a better sense of rhythm I'd think. It's just a matter of few of them taking such an interest, and those who do, aren't opperating at their maximum potential. I'll admit that I haven't seen many female drummers I'm impressed with - I'm not saying I haven't seen good ones, but very few have the wow factor that makes me wanna watch more of their stuff.

My daughter just turned two years old, and given the tradition of music in my family, I'm praying she takes an interest in music, drums especially. I'd love to get her started with lessons when she's five, and see if she could progress into a super talented musician.

She already plays with drums, loves the practice pad, she's very familiar with them. So I'm hoping that by growing up in the environment, she'll be naturally drawn. I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower. So the mere definition of a good 'girl' drummer is completely different than a good drummer.

This is based solely off of my own personal observations. This may be offensive, but I don't have enough evidence supporting any contrary theories. I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations. And just what are your personal expectations of us 'girl drummers?' And why should we have to live up to them?

I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower. So the mere definition of a good 'girl' drummer is completely different than a good drummer. This is based solely off of my own personal observations. This may be offensive, but I don't have enough evidence supporting any contrary theories. I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations. I, admittedly, wouldn't mind to be as good as some 'girl' drummers, irrespectively of whoever's expectations.

It's not right of me to judge, but I'd respect gals like Meytal more if they didn't always wear spandex shirts and even weirder stuff, like drum in heels. Point is, the drumming isn't the main focus for a lot of the viewers.

Some dude needs to get real buffed, oil up and then go on youtube under the name 'Man-tal' to play drum covers of famous songs while smiling at the camera with his fabio mane blowing in the fan-wind. Whomever wants to take this on needs to make sure to do a video response to anything meytal posts.

First cover has to be the Perfect Circle song 'The Package'. I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower.

So the mere definition of a good 'girl' drummer is completely different than a good drummer. This is based solely off of my own personal observations. This may be offensive, but I don't have enough evidence supporting any contrary theories. I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations. I guess if you start from a backwards-ass place of assuming assuming female inferiority, you're going to come to that conclusion.

If you start from a place of thinking women are human beings, then you wonder what it was that caused this historic difference of outcomes in this one area. Why don't you post some of your playing, so we can see how an accomplished man artist plays the drums? I could post these all day.but this should get the point across You did get your point across. Like I said, I have no doubt that they exist, just my personal experiences have not allowed these individuals (or examples of this level of talent) to cross my path. Perhaps that is an indicator of how inferior my abilities are, when compared to others. There was one female who did a sound check for another band, and I was anxious to see her play after watching her hit a few cymbals.

You know you can tell how good/bad somebody is when you see them swing a stick. There is a clinical way, and an emotional way to play drums (depending on whether it is an innate ability, or taught). She did it 'right', but was too nervous to continue. Admittedly, she was on the spot. But other than the internet, this as far as I've come.

I've seen other girl drummers, but they all seem limited, almost as if they quit learning - almost saying,'this is as much as I need to develop - and now I'm done.' Look - guys, I'm not trying to offend anyone. I do have a severely (admitted) sexist approach, but it is founded on observations, not prejudice. In my own home, I encourage my daughters in everything in life as much as my sons. I believe that anybody can do anything.

I do not allow my daughters to say 'I can't do that, because I'm a girl' or 'I'm too small' or anything like that. It disgusts me, and drives me to motivate them even more to succeed.

But I cannot force anyone to drum. My youngest daughter is the only girl remotely involved in music, by comparison - both of my sons enjoy it. Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait. Obviously there are women with masculine traits, just as there men who have feminine traits (I have an odd ability to pick out shoes and clothes for my wife). Without getting in nature vs nuture, I'm just quantifying my perspective with my own observations - admitting (yet again) that I cannot observe what all of you have seen.

Perhaps, as I live longer, my observations will enlighten me to what most of you already know. I've seen other girl drummers, but they all seem limited, almost as if they quit learning - almost saying,'this is as much as I need to develop - and now I'm done.'

And that's not the case with the majority of all drummers, regardless of gender? How about you? Look - guys, I'm not trying to offend anyone. I do have a severely (admitted) sexist approach, but it is founded on observations, not prejudice.

Right, you're just an impartial observer. “Regrettably, those seem to be the facts.” What motivated you to resurrect this dead thread? The spirit of scientific inquiry? I have no doubt that they exist.

If you have no doubt there's some outstanding, talented female drummers out there,why did you post such sexist comments? It doesn't make sense. This forum include several female drummers, some of which are extremely talented, do you really have to see them before your eyes to acknowledge their talent? Female drummers are a minority in the drumming world, for sure, but they are as good and bad as any male drummers, to assume that a gender defines 'good' or 'bad' is utterly ridiculous, in drumming or any other instruments. [QUOTE=JasperGTR;1099283 I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower. So the mere definition of a good 'girl' drummer is completely different than a good drummer.

This is based solely off of my own personal observations. This may be offensive, but I don't have enough evidence supporting any contrary theories. I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations.[/QUOTE] Pretty narrow. I'd suggest you: get out of your basement, read some books, expand your personal observations, GET some evidence, and increase your sample size, and reduce your BIAS before you make any assertions on this topic.

Everything you are saying is subjective. Can we see a video of you playing?

I'm nothing special, I assure you. And that's not the case with the majority of all drummers, regardless of gender? How about you? Right, you're just an impartial observer.

Crack Hay Day Android No Survey. “Regrettably, those seem to be the facts.” What motivated you to resurrect this dead thread? The spirit of scientific inquiry? I've stated, this is based on my personal observations only.

And I agree that this observation is across genders (regarding limiting one's self). We see this among almost all talents and venues (whether music, sports, science, etc.). I don't believe you took my comments entirely in their intended context. The reason this appears to be resurrected is twofold - #1 I haven't checked back here in a while, and #2 if I stated my opinion after reading the other posts on a new thread, it would just be cross-linked anyway, so this just clears up the unnecessary steps. [QUOTE=JasperGTR;1099749] I've seen other girl drummers, but they all seem limited, almost as if they quit learning - almost saying,'this is as much as I need to develop - and now I'm done.' Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait.

QUOTE] Well crap! Not only am I destined to be a failure with my limited abilities, but I'm masculine as well! Guess I better turn in my sticks now!:P (P.S. - I hope this isn't the same logic you use to encourage your daughter!) It appears as though you are offended by my comments. I cannot discuss this path, because I do not see it this way. I have no idea how one can take - 'I haven't seen it' and turn that around to 'It is impossible, so you shouldn't try'.

Interestingly enough - I firmly believe that I am not the only one making these observations, but those who agree are usually not willing to take an un-PC approach to real life experiences. So, for people who believe that female drummers are a common sighting, please share with me your experiences. Even female drummers here - are other female drummers common with you? To me, Cindy Blackman is an anomaly. One of rare talent, combined with artistic and emotional ability, regardless of gender. And I have not even discussed her ability, because, to me, they can mutually exclusive, and.

One can be a GREAT drummer, with little ability. Because there are many types of music, just as there are many types of drummers and styles. Pretty narrow. I'd suggest you: get out of your basement, read some books, expand your personal observations, GET some evidence, and increase your sample size, and reduce your BIAS before you make any assertions on this topic. Everything you are saying is subjective. I've already conceded this with my earlier posts.

In fact, I think I pretty much opened with this. I don't disagree with you (except for the book reading thing - I don't see how this would help me see better drumming). I have every right to make assertions based on my present observations. And I'm here to learn as well. If someone approaches you and says,'Regarding this topic, I don't agree.'

Do you respond and say,'Well you're wrong.' Or like another poster,'Well, I should just quit then (sarcastically).'

To me, it doesn't help anyone. The videos that were posted reminded me of what I already knew to be true, that there are amazing drummers out there, of both genders. I just haven't seen it. To be fair, maybe my expectations are too high in general.

So why bother making these comparisons at all? It's like telling somebody in advertising that they're good at their job 'for a girl'.

If anybody said that in a workplace I were in charge of, they'd be in a meeting with me in a femtosecond, explaining why they expect the standard of women to be lower. So why say it for female drummers? They're a drummer that happens to have female reproductive organs - so what?! This was actually my original position.

Why post 'female drummer'? Why not 'drummer'?

I believe for females to be taken the same way in a seemingly male-dominated arena, drop the moniker. I'm perfectly content with watching any drummer, regardless of gender. Once that person has been self-described as either 'male' or 'female', you've categorized yourself, and I shall put you in the self-labelled container that was requested. If you have no doubt there's some outstanding, talented female drummers out there,why did you post such sexist comments? It doesn't make sense.

This forum include several female drummers, some of which are extremely talented, do you really have to see them before your eyes to acknowledge their talent? Female drummers are a minority in the drumming world, for sure, but they are as good and bad as any male drummers, to assume that a gender defines 'good' or 'bad' is utterly ridiculous, in drumming or any other instruments (Almost missed this one at the bottom of the previous page - my apologies) Because the women who post - 'female' drummer, to me, are suggesting that there is a different category, and are initially launching a sexist platform to be judged, as if it is a separate starting point (like the women's tee in golf). And my comments may appear sexist, because sometimes - in real life - it works out that way. I don't always agree with it, doesn't make it not a reality. Life isn't as politically correct as we all wish.

Jasper, Your 'drumming is inherently masculine' angle is way off the beam, you might like to check out the book 'When the Drummers Were Women: A Spiritual History of Rhythm'. The reason why not so many women play drums drum is a traditional stereotype based on patriarchal suppression. In short, it would read 'Men are strong, women are weak. Drumming is a robust activity and it is unfitting of a lady to do such an activity'. I have spoken with many women who have expressed a wish to play drums, but they say they 'can't'. What they mean is they are afraid of being judged as masculine.

Do you see a lot of men playing the harp? Genetic predisposition? I wonder how many guys don't do dancing when they are young because it's perceived as feminine in the world of brain-dead jocks? Meanwhile, fundamentalist Islamists will tell you that women are unsuited to being educated because we are unable to reason logically. Some nice irony there, no? I could post these all day.but this should get the point acrossAnthony, I just visited this thread after avoiding it for obvious reasons, and the examples you posted are superb (isn't Hilary just wonderful:)), but there's a ton of female drummers out there who don't play in heels, don't hit the headlines, & don't play the 'cute' card. Just bloody good & humble hard working drummers facing the same challenges as we all do.

They're all our drumming brothers! Just to add to our list: http://youtu.be/-FZQuLQuZG0?hd=1. Anthony, I just visited this thread after avoiding it for obvious reasons, and the examples you posted are superb (isn't Hilary just wonderful:)), but there's a ton of female drummers out there who don't play in heels, don't hit the headlines, & don't play the 'cute' card. Just bloody good & humble hard working drummers facing the same challenges as we all do. They're all our drumming brothers! Just to add to our list: Rock solid jam session going on there, excellent drumming.

That said, OMG! Super sweet drums.

My first time checking out Guru and all I can say is no EQ on that mix? Thats a beautiful sounding kit.

Female drummer hasn't ever occurred to me. When I started in 1975, there was a girl in the drum section. She was good too. When I got into high school, there were 4 or 5 girls in the drum line who were all good drummers. I had 2 or 3 different drum instructors that were female over a few summers. My first girlfriend was a drummer, but she didn't play after high school. One thing I noticed in the recent DRUM!

Issue of 200 Greatest. They listed that Viola Smith was billed as the FIRST 'Female Drummer' because she was in a Gretsch ad in 1939, and in a movie. Not to disparage her accomplishments, but. I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different 'All female' groups. She had 'billing' in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.

Cindy Blackman is one of my favorite drummers. She's very nice too. Rock solid jam session going on there, excellent drumming. That said, OMG!

Super sweet drums. My first time checking out Guru and all I can say is no EQ on that mix? Thats a beautiful sounding kit.On behalf of Michele, thank you:) & thanks for your kind words on the kit too. First half of the video is 3 mic's only, second half is with close mic's too.

One thing I noticed in the recent DRUM! Issue of 200 Greatest. They listed that Viola Smith was billed as the FIRST 'Female Drummer' because she was in a Gretsch ad in 1939, and in a movie. Not to disparage her accomplishments, but. I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different 'All female' groups. She had 'billing' in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.

Wow, now that's something very special:). Jasper, Your 'drumming is inherently masculine' angle is way off the beam, you might like to check out the book 'When the Drummers Were Women: A Spiritual History of Rhythm'. The reason why not so many women play drums drum is a traditional stereotype based on patriarchal suppression. In short, it would read 'Men are strong, women are weak. Drumming is a robust activity and it is unfitting of a lady to do such an activity'. I have spoken with many women who have expressed a wish to play drums, but they say they 'can't'. What they mean is they are afraid of being judged as masculine.

Do you see a lot of men playing the harp? Genetic predisposition? I wonder how many guys don't do dancing when they are young because it's perceived as feminine in the world of brain-dead jocks? Meanwhile, fundamentalist Islamists will tell you that women are unsuited to being educated because we are unable to reason logically. Some nice irony there, no? I simply stated PERHAPS it is a masculine trait.

I personally don't feel that there is any actual testing of genetic predispositions for various instruments. I was just merely speculating.

The mere fact that we all enrolled on this website, is a testament to the devotion some of us have towards our instrument, willing to share our knowledge and experience with others for the benefit of the community. I honestly do not feel anything I've said (or posted) will change anybody's opinion of themselves. There were plenty of female drummers back in my school days, and in the drumlines I've marched with. I've played along side many female drummers.

Like I said, I didn't just come up with my observations out of thin air. I didn't put females in certain chair sequences, or judge their ability.

I simply watched what happened. I encourage all musicians to pursue their goals. In fact, I'd like to help change my perception, along with those people who see the same things I do. But - my issue with that is self-conflicting.

How does one encourage females to do something, without being sexist in the first place? I simply stated PERHAPS it is a masculine trait. I personally don't feel that there is any actual testing of genetic predispositions for various instruments. I was just merely speculating. Oh well, then your speculation was questionable.

In matters of skill I think you will find far greater difference within genders than between them. Males tend to have more fast-twitch fibres in their muscles so that may be your angle, but I don't equate speed with quality as a musician and but some people seem to think the acrobatic component of music is paramount (I see speed as one of the least important things in drumming, except in a few genres and subgenres). There were plenty of female drummers back in my school days, and in the drumlines I've marched with. I've played along side many female drummers. Like I said, I didn't just come up with my observations out of thin air.

I didn't put females in certain chair sequences, or judge their ability. I simply watched what happened.

I encourage all musicians to pursue their goals. In fact, I'd like to help change my perception, along with those people who see the same things I do. But - my issue with that is self-conflicting. How does one encourage females to do something, without being sexist in the first place? Happy to help you change your perception.

You have based your speculation on 3.5 billion people on a handful of girls in your old school - a particular place in a particular time with a particular culture with a particular availability of role models with particular instructors and the girls had their individual family situations, who will have attitudes about women on drums (as opposed to girls on drums - a lot of girls quit sports prematurely too). Add society's stereotypical views about gender and drummers and you have far too many qualifying and mitigating factors to allow for valid speculation about comparative physiological aptitude. Unless you're talking about someone under the age of, say, 14, it's pretty offensive, especially in the context of a conversation about “girls” being crappy drummers who unfairly hog all the YouTube hits. It's not a whole lot better than calling an adult African-American male “boy”— there's the same ongoing history of belittling there. To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect. Karl, was she to the best of your knowledge the first women drumkit drummer? I see what you mean, but if I remember the piece correctly, they didn't list VS as the first 'drum kit' player.

Could be wrong, but I don't recall 'drum kit' being singled out. It was Gretsch publicity too, so they'd say whatever they wanted in an advertisement for a pretty lady on their drums. I have no idea on how 'rare' she was as a drummer. She and her sisters were all in Vaudeville at an early age (under 12 for sure) though. I don't have any pics of my Grandmother on a 'tensionable lugs on both heads' kind of kit from back then.

She probably played what was a 'trap' kit with a Chinese tom, snare and all that. I have a pic of her when she was older on a Radio King 4 piece kit. I have pics of my Grandfather on a tunable kit, and some marching pics of him. This is the only pic I have available on PB of her ATM--Nelly Jay and her Jay Birds--think this is 1926 If I only had that bass drum.:-) I have A bass drum (Leedy), but not this one.

Blah blah blah blah blah. How’s our favourite dead horse doing? In the UK (correct me if I’m wrong), “boy” is a pretty normal term for any male human. Not insulting at all. And while we’re picking nits, “gender” has little to do with “male” and “female”: those are sexes, not genders per se.

Here’s my (completely unsupported) theory on why there are so few female drummers: women in the Western world are taught from a very young age that it’s somehow wrong to sit with legs apart, so sitting at a kit with a snare drum in the normal position causes mental anguish (conscious or otherwise) which manifests as a general uncomfortable feeling about drumming. Or, similarly, our young wannabe-drummer may have a great desire to play, but she’s put off by thoughts that other people will judge her as un-ladylike, which is, again, something she’s been taught to avoid. (Note, however, that this argument seems irrelevant when you look at the large number of female cellists. Fair points about girl vs woman, although it should be said that the circle turns and sometimes when one reaches a certain age, being called a girl or chick again is. It's true that 'girl' and 'boy' can be to help enforce subjugated status, but it's pretty well never the case on this site. These words are almost invariably coming from young males whose world consists of 'guys and girls' - no intent, no harm, no foul IMO I think most of the time the word 'girl' isn't intended to be offensive. Most guys toss the word around without really thinking about it.

It is inappropriate to refer to adult women who play the drums as 'girl drummers' though. I see your point about it coming full circle after a certain age. It's like reaching that point when your flattered to get carded for beer.:) Karl, that picture is amazing! I need to learn more about these women. Unless you're talking about someone under the age of, say, 14, it's pretty offensive, especially in the context of a conversation about “girls” being crappy drummers who unfairly hog all the YouTube hits. It's not a whole lot better than calling an adult African-American male “boy”— there's the same ongoing history of belittling there. To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.

Doesn't really ring true in the UK. Boys and Girls are 'usually' the term for children but there is no sense of offence if it's used for adults. Oh well, then your speculation was questionable. In matters of skill I think you will find far greater difference within genders than between them.

Males tend to have more fast-twitch fibres in their muscles so that may be your angle, but I don't equate speed with quality as a musician and but some people seem to think the acrobatic component of music is paramount (I see speed as one of the least important things in drumming, except in a few genres and subgenres). Happy to help you change your perception. You have based your speculation on 3.5 billion people on a handful of girls in your old school - a particular place in a particular time with a particular culture with a particular availability of role models with particular instructors and the girls had their individual family situations, who will have attitudes about women on drums (as opposed to girls on drums - a lot of girls quit sports prematurely too). Add society's stereotypical views about gender and drummers and you have far too many qualifying and mitigating factors to allow for valid speculation about comparative physiological aptitude. Regarding different muscle fibers - I was not at all referring to the physical ability, rather the mental framework. We've all learned in life that various activities are usually more mental than physical. I believe that drumming is a LOT of neurological training.

I'm amused by the amount of misconceptions and assumptions being made about me personally. Not sure how that equates to this topic (as if I base this off of a particular moment in time in one specific area). So if there are too many factors allowing speculation, I should just turn my pens and pencils in, and accept that nothing can explain it, but I'm wrong. The question really is: Aren't there more male musicians then female around generally? (And I rather mean professional adults) So it probably has nothing to do with anything drumming specific I guess.

Just last night I was at a show. Of the 11 bands that played - there were two female musicians. One was a bass player/vocalist. A guy turns to me and says,'I love girl bass players. I think they're hot.'

She wasn't impressive as bass player, but that didn't stop my friends from being amazed. This observation does span across more instruments (and also reverse with a few, where I've seen more females excel than males), I was just trying to stay within the context of drumming. Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as 'girl drummers'?

We don't say 'boy drummer' although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much. Yeah, PC isn't for me. If people get offended by being called girl (within the context of girls/guys, even though it has been gals/guys vs girls/boys) - there are bigger issues here.

To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect. Yeah, I enjoy this aspect of discussions. My observations appear to be sexist, but then if I attempt to equal the results, then there is more sexism. There is no place for political correctness (unless you are attempting to be elected to a political office). If I say that more male drivers race cars than women, I'm sexist - right? It is my observation. How is that wrong?

Are there female drivers? Can women race cars? Can women race cars well? Is race car driving dominated by men? Is it politically correct to say any of this?

I don't care - it is true, based on my observation. Now replace race car drivers with drummers. Everything still fits. *edit: It may very well be a sheer numbers thing - i.e. 1 in 100 drummers would be exceptional, 5 in 100 would be great, maybe 2 of those 100 drummers might be female. So where they fall in could be anywhere in that group of 100. If there were more participants, then perhaps numbers would fall in line.

Nobody here is trying to suggest that those two females can't excel, but rather the odds of those two being seen is a rarity (unfortunately). But if 98% (arbitrary assignment) participants are male, there is a large percentage the exceptional ones will be male. I just haven't found that sample of the 2 (or overwhelming minority) excel in that group.

I've always seemed to have seen the average (in rare cases, above average - but then is my perception skewed?). I've already conceded this with my earlier posts. In fact, I think I pretty much opened with this. I don't disagree with you (except for the book reading thing - I don't see how this would help me see better drumming). I have every right to make assertions based on my present observations. And I'm here to learn as well.

If someone approaches you and says,'Regarding this topic, I don't agree.' Do you respond and say,'Well you're wrong.' Yes indeed IF I know what someone is stating is not factual, in other words has no *hard data* behind it.

A few personal observations are not data, sample size is small and inherently biased already (for example maybe your observations are in all male clubs, or in clubs with music that does not attract many females). Look at how many musicians there are, and then how many are female, and so on. The book reading helps. This is about opening your mind to the work showing that gender bias exists everywhere and there are simple historical and culture reasons for it (see post by Anduin) that we can easily all be aware of (and that still don;t make it right) Its like this.When little Sally shows an interest in music, the drums are the last thing her parents would talk her into. This was the case in 1930, 1950, 1980 and is only maybe slowly changing today. Yeah, I enjoy this aspect of discussions.

My observations appear to be sexist, but then if I attempt to equal the results, then there is more sexism. There is no place for political correctness (unless you are attempting to be elected to a political office). If I say that more male drivers race cars than women, I'm sexist - right? It is my observation.

How is that wrong? Are there female drivers? Can women race cars?

Can women race cars well? Is race car driving dominated by men?

Is it politically correct to say any of this? I don't care - it is true, based on my observation. Now replace race car drivers with drummers. Everything still fits. *edit: It may very well be a sheer numbers thing - i.e. 1 in 100 drummers would be exceptional, 5 in 100 would be great, maybe 2 of those 100 drummers might be female.

So where they fall in could be anywhere in that group of 100. If there were more participants, then perhaps numbers would fall in line. Nobody here is trying to suggest that those two females can't excel, but rather the odds of those two being seen is a rarity (unfortunately). But if 98% (arbitrary assignment) participants are male, there is a large percentage the exceptional ones will be male. I just haven't found that sample of the 2 (or overwhelming minority) excel in that group. I've always seemed to have seen the average (in rare cases, above average - but then is my perception skewed?). There's nothing sexist about observing that there are fewer female drummers, of course!

It's just a fact. Is someone arguing that it is? I'm late to the party here so maybe that was a previous argument. To American women it's just more respectful to say ' women' or 'female' vs 'girl' when you are referring to them in a non-playful manner. And it's a double standard when men are not called 'boys' in the same manner that women are called 'girls', typically. That's just another fact. And thank you for saying 'female' in your last post instead of 'girl'.

See, you really do listen even though you pretend not to.;););). Yes indeed IF I know what someone is stating is not factual, in other words has no *hard data* behind it. A few personal observations are not data, sample size is small and inherently biased already (for example maybe your observations are in all male clubs, or in clubs with music that does not attract many females). Look at how many musicians there are, and then how many are female, and so on. The book reading helps. This is about opening your mind to the work showing that gender bias exists everywhere and there are simple historical and culture reasons for it (see post by Anduin) that we can easily all be aware of (and that still don;t make it right) Its like this.When little Sally shows an interest in music, the drums are the last thing her parents would talk her into. This was the case in 1930, 1950, 1980 and is only maybe slowly changing today.

While your points are valid, I don't need any further proof of gender bias. Anyone who has been alive for more than 15 minutes sees this everyday. There's nothing sexist about observing that there are fewer female drummers, of course! It's just a fact. Is someone arguing that it is? I'm late to the party here so maybe that was a previous argument.

To American women it's just more respectful to say ' women' or 'female' vs 'girl' when you are referring to them in a non-playful manner. And it's a double standard when men are not called 'boys' in the same manner that women are called 'girls', typically. That's just another fact.

And thank you for saying 'female' in your last post instead of 'girl'. See, you really do listen even though you pretend not to.;););) This has been a moving target.

You haven't missed much. I usually say female. That was a mistake, though - because the original post was about 'girl' drummers. So my use of the term 'female' was incorrect. Please disregard. But basically, this has originated on the premise that 'girl' drummers get more views on youtube videos (or attention in general), simply because they are female, and not their ability to play the drums well (or any better than their male/boy counterparts). And the term of 'girl' is sometimes used correctly.

I saw a video with two qualifiers ~ 'great girl drummers (for her age)'. Jasper, no one's arguing against facts, just questioning some of your other comments, like: Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait. Obviously there are women with masculine traits, just as there men who have feminine traits (I have an odd ability to pick out shoes and clothes for my wife). I'm a rather ordinary female drummer who would seemingly prove your point.

Yet I still can't see the genetics in it - not with drums, not with any instrument. Music is one of the most gender neutral things you can do. Certainly at school the guys on the footy team won't think of the guys in the music room as macho. Yet, most musicians are male, apart from maybe orchestras. I think the most important reason behind this is that women aren't encouraged to play instruments - we are supposed to sing and dance and look pretty and poised for the guys. While some men dig sweaty Amazons (fortunately), princesses are far more in demand.

And a proper lady does not chuck a spread around a snare drum and get all boisterous and sweaty on the drum kit! The other reason major reason is that gigging and motherhood are an especially tricky juggle.

It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, but I can't see how there could be an aptitude difference. It's environmental.

I sometimes dread to read the comments underneath a youtube video of a girl drumming, some of them are so obnoxious that even I get angry. I mean, I've been drumming for a year now, and I had some pretty stupid comments thrown into my face when I said I want to drum in a black metal band. (Women shouldn't do black metal, women can't drum black metal, yadda yadda yadda. One even laughed straight into my face.) Oh well, fuck them. Some girls are drumming in high heels in the youtube videos (why!!!

I don't get it! It's the same with driving a car in high heels.

I just don't get it.) Respect if you can do it, you know, but why make it more difficult than it is already. It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, I think there are, but almost always a positive aspect of female drummers. Less testosterone is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Almost every female drummer I meet places a far greater emphasis on the song, & is often far better at using dynamics to express rather than relying on flash.

To sum up, I think most female drummers, at least the ones who play well, are less selfish in their approach to the instrument. Some girls are drumming in high heels in the youtube videos (why!!!

Let me start by saying, that prick who laughed in your face is a turd of a human. He will reap the benefits of his own prejudice for sure. Regarding playing in heals.

To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis.

You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Although that may do them some good on the surface, I don't think it helps their case as a musician to be taken seriously, & it certainly feeds the stereo typing of a gender in drumming. I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but there's a time & a place for that, & it's not behind a kit.

I think there are, but almost always a positive aspect of female drummers. Less testosterone is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Almost every female drummer I meet places a far greater emphasis on the song, & is often far better at using dynamics to express rather than relying on flash. To sum up, I think most female drummers, at least the ones who play well, are less selfish in their approach to the instrument. Let me start by saying, that prick who laughed in your face is a turd of a human. He will reap the benefits of his own prejudice for sure. Regarding playing in heals.

To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Although that may do them some good on the surface, I don't think it helps their case as a musician to be taken seriously, & it certainly feeds the stereo typing of a gender in drumming. I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but there's a time & a place for that, & it's not behind a kit.

If I'd play in a low cut top, I'd be afraid my boobs will pop out during playing. Not that I'm playing that wild, but you never know! It's all about practicality for me. Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer? Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers.

A good drummer is a good drummer, period. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I believe this is the consensus of most of the members here. It makes sense.

But I feel that those who play these cards, aren't interested in becoming a member of a community, rather than get hits on youtube, or photos in a magazine. It is all too rare. If it happens in front of me - I'll buy you a drink, then tell war stories. We all appreciate good drummers (competition, inspiration, entertainment, pure musical enjoyment).

The issue we see as qualifiers (or self-designated restrictions), this is not instrument specific, or gender specific, nor is it just music, but life in general. Yeah, Jasper, getting back to your original point I think I agree with you. Women are gonna stand out because it is still relatively unusual to see a female behind the drums and therefore garner more attention. That and they are better to look. Well, usually anyway. It's rarer still to see a REALLY GREAT female drummer, too.

Not for any reason other than there are less of us around. And yes, it is MUCH more enjoyable watching a female musician who is GOOD at her instrument. It is like Heaven on Earth. Jasper, no one's arguing against facts, just questioning some of your other comments, like: I'm a rather ordinary female drummer who would seemingly prove your point.

Yet I still can't see the genetics in it - not with drums, not with any instrument. Music is one of the most gender neutral things you can do. Certainly at school the guys on the footy team won't think of the guys in the music room as macho. Yet, most musicians are male, apart from maybe orchestras.

I think the most important reason behind this is that women aren't encouraged to play instruments - we are supposed to sing and dance and look pretty and poised for the guys. While some men dig sweaty Amazons (fortunately), princesses are far more in demand. And a proper lady does not chuck a spread around a snare drum and get all boisterous and sweaty on the drum kit! The other reason major reason is that gigging and motherhood are an especially tricky juggle. It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, but I can't see how there could be an aptitude difference. It's environmental. Wonderful perspective!

BUT - I wasn't implying an aptitude difference, but rather merely suggesting that the urge to beat things is an aggressive feature that is normally attributed to the hunter - wondering if there are hormonal differences that activate different triggers in the brain when stimulated, combined with physical traits such as muscular structure. Clearly there are traits defined as either normally masculine or feminine, but that doesn't define whether a man or woman should have either one. I mean - we all start out as female, and the differences between gender is hormonal from the very beginning. I'm sure it would be interesting to learn that there is a 'nature' aspect of the reason we gravitate towards music in general, and then more specifically - drums. On another note - there was an annoying story about a (supposed) musician using tactics unrelated to music to promote one's self during a competition. It was a well told story, but clearly the party involved would be embarrassed to read it.

I was going to respond to it, only to notice it has been removed. What happened? My comments would have addressed the point that I believe because she was a female, with a moderate display of ability, someone saw this as a cash cow, invested money in the entourage, and hoped to reap the benefits.

She was nothing more than marionette. It is a shame really. To add the controversy, and this discussion - I believe this situation is a direct result of the topic we are discussing. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I believe this is the consensus of most of the members here. It makes sense. But I feel that those who play these cards, aren't interested in becoming a member of a community, rather than get hits on youtube, or photos in a magazine.

That's a new one on me. I've never heard of the “being female and good looking” card. I guess if they ugly themselves up before hitting the stage that would sit better with you? That should go over well. I guess I need to introduce you to something you've never heard of, which I like to call “show” business.

I hear that for participants (known as “performers”), getting their videos watched and getting their photo in the press are actually good things. It's known as “publicity” and these so-called PER-FOR-MERS (excuse me, I sometimes over-enunciate when pronouncing exotic words) actually use it to advance their “careers.” Seriously, community? WITF are you talking about?

Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Playing in 'heals' - nice Freudian slip! I won't even wear heels to weddings and funerals these days let alone when trying to operate pedals.

I take off flat sandals before driving, let alone heels. (Funny thing, it's illegal to drive with bare feet but that's how I feel the most control, same with hats and kick). There's a clip on YT with Sheila E ripping off a solo while wearing a spangly mini dress and heels. How can she play so well in party clothes? That's part of the shtick. How did she do it?

Whatever, as Mary said, girly girls don't feel right unless they're spruced up to some extent. I personally go for comfort over glamour every time but, then again, I'm growing old with a dog.:). Maybe there's something wrong with me but I don't see a problem with messy threads like this. There will always be a clash between Disturbers of The Peace and Enforcers of Standards (and those in between) if there is a sniff of gender, economics, religion, guns, sexuality, jazz and double bass drum pedals etc. The only problem is that some interesting objective information and ideas can be glossed over because people tend to be captivated by conflict, eg.

Karls' drumming grandmother, physiology, cultural observations.